August 10, 2020
[00:00:05] Liz Bothwell: Hi everyone. I just want to make sure that you all know that WasteExpo Together Online registration is open. You can go to WasteExpo.com to register and check out who's speaking, and the amazing content we have lined up for you guys. We're super excited and know you will be too.
Hi everyone. This is Liz Bothwell from Waste360 with Kristine Berg. She's a Circular Economy Advisor at TOMRA and an Ambassador for eXXpedition. Welcome, Kristine, and thanks for being on the show today.
[00:00:35] Kristine Berg: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
[00:00:38] Liz: I can't wait to hear about your journey, so could you please introduce yourself and tell us what fueled your passion for the work you're doing?
[00:00:47] Kristine: Yes, of course. My name is Kristine, I'm Norwegian. I live in Oslo in Norway where I work for TOMRA, like you said, working mainly with deposit return, technology, and legislation. That very consumer-facing end of circular economy. I am very fortunate to get to work with the bigger picture as well. Not only with deposit on beverage containers, but also really connecting the dots with how our habits, as individuals on land, really have an impact on our oceans.
Growing up in Norway, we have the world's second-longest coal spine after Canada. Historically as well, we're definitely ocean voyaging people, and I guess my family is no different in that sense, although, we tended to stay inshore. Growing up along the coastline, fishing with my granddad and my family, spending summers by the sea, there wasn't a lot of pollution per se in the picture at that point. I traveled around the world, I've lived in Hawaii, I've lived in Indonesia, following that passion for the ocean and that relationship to the ocean. Also, academically trying to understand what actually sustainability is, how do we measure it, and how can we improve it.
I think for a lot of the people that I also surround myself with today, that journey is pretty much summed up with the fact that people who have a relationship to the ocean, ultimately, also have a relationship to plastic pollution which is also what I've been doing working for TOMRA over the past two years. I've been out in the Pacific. I've crossed the North Pacific and the South Pacific with eXXpedition, which is a partner of TOMRA. It's a very happy marriage there to continue the education, building that awareness and doing that citizen science, building those data sets of understanding of what happens to plastic when it's out in the ocean.
I sailed with them to be part of an all-female crew on a scientific voyage that is now going to span two years in total with a little [unintelligible 00:03:30] break in the middle, which we might get to later. Having spent time out to sea, it really drives home the fact that what we do on land is ultimately what has an impact on our oceans and the everyday habits that we have. Especially in terms of consuming plastic packaging and what we tend to call unnecessary single-use plastic.
That's something that we need to really understand. We need to do better and we need to regulate better. We also need to have some very honest conversations, and that's where my passion is right now and where the work that I do is right now. Having been out there, having witnessed what happens to plastic, how far it travels out to sea, then understanding, "Right, this is the kind of plastic that ends up out there. Now, how do we do better on land?" That's the journey that I've had into where I am today.
[00:04:35] Liz: That's amazing. You grew up around the ocean and now that's your mission. I'd love that because I grew up on an island as well, so I really appreciate your passion. Now, tell us more about your North Pacific trip. I read that that really changed everything for you. Can you share a bit about that?
[00:04:56] Kristine: Yes. The North Pacific voyage that we did in 2018, it changed my life both personally and professionally, in so many ways. It was one of the first things that I did in my work for TOMRA. Being traditionally, maybe more of a business-to-business company, we hadn't ventured into those kinds of collaborations, importantly, scientific collaborations, building that awareness as well with the campaign that eXXpedition is doing.
We hadn't done a lot of that before, so that was a first for the company. Something that I managed to build and that is still living within the company and with our partner eXXpedition, which has been great. That was a first, figuring out how do we do that and what does it look like. Although I've been fishing with my granddad since I was just a little girl, we spent most our time on motorboats. I hadn't actually sailed anything before we set sail.
From Hawaii, we were crossing over to Vancouver and all I knew was it's three weeks of not seeing anyone except for these other 13 women on board this boat. I thought I was going to panic when we lost sight of the Hawaiian Islands. It was a very windy and very wet voyage that we went through. We sailed upwind for three weeks, but every day we would spend, depending on the weather condition, two to four hours collecting air samples, surface samples with the manta trawl and really looking at what is the prevalence of plastic, what are we finding, what types, and can we assess what kind of product it might have come from, like what are we seeing.
There were a lot of, I think, defining moments for me out there. It's one thing to be with an amazing female crew who are coming from all these different disciplines, because that's what we're seeing as well with trying to solve the issues of misuse of plastic, or plastic having gone astray, mismanagement of waste. It's really a cross-disciplinary international project to solve it, and there's not one solution. We need multiple solutions. Onboard, it was me coming from industry, we had teachers, we had designers, storytellers, really building that force of women that go back to their different spheres of influence and be change-makers.
That was life-changing in itself. We were completely alone out there. I think on day 11, we saw a tanker or something crossing on the horizon and we were all over like, "Get out of here. This is our ocean. We're doing fine, we don't need [unintelligible 00:08:14]. This is where we rule." It was just amazing to have that feeling, because we were like, "Wow, we are so happy and self-sufficient out here." Which caught us all a little bit by surprise, maybe, in a good way.
We realized that we really had everything we needed within ourselves and between ourselves, which I think has had lasting impacts on all of us professionally as well, when we came back to land. We have sailed for a week and a half, we are thousands of kilometers from land. Literally the closest people to us are in the International Space Station. Still, we're seeing lawn chairs with all four legs intact, we saw a toilet seat, a washing basket, toothbrushes, it's our takeaway menu.
You just see these pieces that are very related to human life when we're out there it in a place that feels like we've gone to Mars and you see plastic debris around you, which is just a completely bizarre experience. I think one thing is seeing these images on social media or in the news about ocean plastic and trying to understand what it looks like out there.
After having sailed for weeks, you do know how many meals you've had, how many times you've gotten in and out of your wet clothes, how many night shifts you've done, how many samples you pulled up, you feel the distance in a very different way when you stay like this. Then, you still see the impact of what happens when you don't treat plastic as a valuable and critical material on land, and make sure that it doesn't waste, end up in the ocean, and goes astray in the first place. That was really defining for me. Also, because even though we saw these bigger items flow by, the area that we sailed through is the North Pacific Gyre, more commonly may be known as the Great Pacific Garbage Patch.
It's easy to hear the word patch, and think of these trash islands. They're miles that are so solid that you can basically walk on them. I realized when I was out there that I would have loved for that to be the case [chuckles] because if it's a trash island, you can go out there, you can scoop it up, and you can bring it back to land, but what we see, and what happens to plastic when it's been out there for years, or even for decades, is that it breaks into microplastic pieces. It's, literally, a plastic soup about as far from land as you could possibly get. That really will hold the point for me that the impact that we need to have, that has to start on land.
[00:11:12] Liz: I bet because I saw that you said that it's too late by the time it gets to the ocean.
[00:11:18] Kristine: Yes. Once it ends up in the ocean, I don't see how that's a good use. The one thing that I try to stay aware of though, in this space is that it's really easy to shoot people down who don't have the perfect solution. There's never going to be the perfect solution for all of it. Obviously, when you go out there, one thing is doing the research to understand the problem out to sea too, because if you don't understand it out to sea, how you're going to solve it on land? You have to understand exactly what happens to it when it's adding stuff out in the ocean but to go out there and clean it up--
When we were we had failed for 1,000/2,000 nautical miles. We were pulling up samples, small segments that we sampled out in this vast ocean, the world's biggest, and deepest ocean. We pull up a thousand pieces of microplastics. Going out there and cleaning that up is near impossible, incredibly expensive, challenging, and frustrating. Although, ocean plastics can be sexy and all that, what is really sexy to me is does not put it in the ocean in the first place.
[00:12:41] Liz: You have a great point, it's so true. Since you've been back, that was in 2018, have you and the team made any headway in your goals since you returned?
[00:12:54] Kristine: Yes. It definitely was a life-changing experience for all of us. Working with teachers who really now can educate in a whole different way, scale that communication/education of what they do with other schools, both locally and globally through online tools, that has been really important to really educate the next generation on what are the good habits that you can have, what are the habits that you have in your everyday life that can positively impact not just the ocean, but also the climate crisis.
Having designers on board who are working whether it's packaging industry, apparel, or bigger creative processes. Having an understanding of, "You got to look at all the complicated impacts, you got to look at. If you turn this little knob right here, and you turn that one, what is going to happen down these value chains? What is going to happen in these networks?"
To be willing to do that, to see what change you can cascade, but also being aware of the fact that there's no silver bullet, there's no simple one solution. Anyone who tells you there is, they're lying because it's a lot more complex than that when plastic is the workhorse of our modern economy, the workhorse of our modern life. It's so important for transport, for food and water safety, for medical safety. To understand how valuable it is, and treat it as such. Also, understand that it's become a part of the fabric of our modern world, and we need to have some conversations about that.
For me, working in the industry, it has been my guiding light since I stepped off the boat because I've been out there, I've seen it, I've seen albatross in the fog, fly around the boat, feeding on plastic that I know it's going to bring back to its chicks that haven't even been out to sea yet. They're impacted and harmed by eating plastic debris. I know that if I don't put all my passion, and all my energy into being part of the positive change, and hold myself in that standard, I cannot ask it of anyone else. That has really changed my professional, and my personal life.
Obviously, it's working in the industry. The industry that we're in with recycling, with waste management, sometimes it has the changes that need to come. They have to take time because you need good system design, you need holistic perspectives, and you need a lot of different stakeholders working together to come to these lasting systemic solutions. It was both a very immediate effect for me, but Also, having the patience with not jumping at the first, and most sexy solution. Actually, getting to the degree of what is going to get us to where we need to go.
[00:16:21] Liz: Definitely. I know COVID is impacting everything, do you have another excursion planned, or is it all reliant on where the world is in the next few months or so?
[00:16:33] Kristine: It's tough to even try to predict what the world is going to look like in the next months, or a year even. I was fortunate enough, though, to join next expedition again, with a different crew this time, different boat even, but same mission, and same amazing core crew.
Before early March when the world was still fairly normal and COVID hadn't unfolded into this global pandemic, or it was about to, but the world was still operating really normal at that point. I, actually, flew down to East Island to join the boat there because it had sailed from Plymouth. I've been out to sea for about six months. As a partner of this two year round the world research mission with TOMRA, I was fortunate enough to be able to join for the leg that went from Easter Island to Tahiti.
Now, the boat is stuck in Tahiti for about a year, for obvious reasons. It was a special, but it was a very beautiful time to be out there failing when we knew that we were. We had limited communications, but we knew we were going to come back to a world that was completely different than the one we set sail from. I think all of us, maybe, appreciated being in the place that we love so much, out on the ocean. We appreciated it that much more, we managed to turn the complete lack of privacy on its head to say that at least we're able to hug each other, be together, and have that community, which we were hearing that a lot of people are lacking, unfortunately, now with self-isolation, and quarantine.
We really took that time to really enjoy those three weeks that we spent sailing from Easter Island to Tahiti. We did all the sampling that we were supposed to do, we got all the data that we needed. In many ways, it was a great success that leg to explain the research programs a little bit though. We do land-based science on all the legs, when the boat is in Harbor or anchor, the crew goes on land. There is a shift over of crew because on every leg there's 10 guest crew, 10 women from all over the world in different disciplines who come on board to have this experience of connecting, not only to the problem but to the ocean. Ultimately, you will have 300 women who have had that experience after the two years are over.
The work starts on land, we're using the marine to be a tracker, we're using a tool that is being developed by Jenna Jambeck, and her team at the University of Georgia. We're helping build that data set of a circularity assessment protocol, which is basically understanding what pathway does plastic take out into the ocean, where's the waste comes from. When we're on land, we're looking at what are we finding on the ground. Is it close to supermarkets, cafes, dumpsites, waste systems? Trying to map out really the pathway that it takes, which is really interesting.
Jenna Jambeck and her team were the ones that first described the fact that we're looking at eight million tons of plastic entering the ocean every single year. A world-leading research institution on that field. A lot of the sea-based sampling and research is being led up by University of Plymouth, and Richard Thompson. He's acknowledged as the first to describe microplastics a couple of decades ago. This is really interesting, and really relevant research that we're doing out there.
Obviously, it's really fun to have that contrast between the North Pacific, which was windy, rainy, foggy, and sometimes plain, miserable, and cold. Then, going down to the South Pacific sailing towards the equator in the steel-hulled boat that absorbed all the heat without any air conditioning, it's a different experience in a lot of ways.
The science has also grown and developed since 2018. One of my favorite tools on board was an FTIR machine, which uses this mass spectroscopy to not just look at the plastic that we're pulling up from the surface, "Is it film? Is there a fragment? Or is it a piece of rope?", that analysis we do with a microscope. But putting it in this machine, we can look at exactly what type of polymer it is, and how polluted it might be from having been out there, which is such a next level in terms of-- I guess in a good way confronting us with, "This is what is ending up at sea, this is what we need to regulate better on land".
The Pacific Ocean has a very special place in my heart, and I think what is interesting from an industry perspective as well is these small island states who have been so resilient for hundreds of years, if not thousands, are so many people globally, so many continents and countries that have an impact on the Pacific Ocean. These island states were out there and have been in such stewards of their land, and their ocean resources are now really being faced with the burden of plastic pollution washing up on their beaches.
Also, with the burden of the cleanup and the management of it. For me, that all just really comes together in a very interesting and complex mix, which just makes it feel so meaningful to be out there doing this work.
[00:23:21] Liz: I bet. You being out there, seeing how concrete it is and the effects of it. I know, Kristine, that you've spoken about integrating ocean plastic into the supply chain. Can you talk about that? Can that really work?
[00:23:41] Kristine: Yes. Obviously, I'm not the expert on exactly what needs to happen for ocean plastic to enter the value chain, but I do know a little bit about the issues or about the challenge that you face to get to that point where it might be part of the value chain. I think the first thing to remember really is that, although ocean plastic in products have really elevated the idea of upcycling, and elevated the idea that something that you once saw as waste and something that was so dirty that you wouldn't even touch it without gloves, it's now something that has a value, something that you might be proud, a product that you might be proud to use and proud to wear.
That is a beautiful achievement in itself. We do know that there is plenty of mismanaged plastic to go around. There's, definitely, volume still to be put into value chains. One thing to remember, though, is that in the world that we are trying to build, that we want to envision, ocean plastic doesn't exist. No at least in the quantities where we can rely on it as a supply source. That's the first thing to keep in mind that, although we want to integrate into value chains to give it value so that we put it back into the closed loop, ultimately the world that we're trying to build is one where you don't have that supply anymore. Until we get there, I think-
[00:25:21] Kristine: Let's be honest, we have a bit of a way to go to get there still, but from some of the work that we've been doing at TOMRA, as well with ocean plastic projects and upcycling projects, the way that we do our business, obviously, we talk to consumers, a lot of our business is very consumers-facing, but we also did further up the value chain with these industrial sorting technology machines, which talks a lot more to the plastic recyclers.
Things that you want to know as a plastic recycler is you want to know volume and you want to know quality of the supply. One thing that is really hard to formalize with ocean plastic is quality and it is supply. Since we know that ocean plastics have been integrated into products, apparel, and stuff like that, it is possible and it's possible to do it in a really successful way. If you're trying to set up something that's more local or more small scale, it is challenging also in terms of how selective you have to be with what you can actually recycle into new products and where you can keep the value of the material as much as you can.
What we've been trying to do is, basically, get our hands on the dirtiest ultra plastic you can possibly get your hands on just to understand what does it look like, what is the composition of the supply and how can we use it, how can we utilize it, how can we give it value and how can we differentiate what is in this supply to make sure that as little as possible of it goes to waste. That isn't always easy.
Also, because one of the hurdles that we have encountered with these projects is import/export regulation, which has gotten tighter and tighter over the years. For understandable reasons, but is again shifting the burden of the management and handling of a lot of plastic waste in geographies that don't necessarily have that sustainable infrastructure in place.
From where we're sitting, we've had some lessons. It's not easy to just say, "We'll do ocean plastics and then you can just put it in the value chain, you can make stuff off it." It's more complicated than that. I think the awareness that has been built around ocean plastic is magnificent because it's something that so many people rally around, and that has a real impact. I think in terms of ocean plastic, it's sexy and it has a social value, but like I said, the sexiest thing for me is for producers take responsibility.
[00:28:26] Liz: Absolutely [laughs] It sounds like at TOMRA you're using a lot of what you've learned, but how else has your work with eXXpedition informed any technology products, anything else that you're doing at TOMRA?
[00:28:44] Kristine: Obviously, eXXpedition has been very powerful for us to learn more about the problem and learn how we can be an agent of change as a company globally. Also, to be part of that conversation around ocean plastics, and plastic management and material management on land. We were in a process before eXXpedition as well, we have been for some time, seeing the value of material and circular economy with closing the loop on materials, qualifying that quality and value of the material. That has been our core business since the beginning.
That journey of understanding our role in all of this it started before that, but I think it has become more clear for a lot of us after eXXpedition. After had been sailed and been out there, that there are knowledge gaps that we need to fill with understanding what actually ends up in the ocean. For us as well, really it's not so much about maybe integrating ocean plastics into our value chain, but more about understanding how do we move as far our own value chains as possible to create that change and to be as responsible as we can.
I think that we're a global company and we produce a lot of different technology machines. I think that is something, that awareness is being integrated into a lot of our processes and, ultimately, that has to be expressed in R&D and design of what we do. What is interesting for me also working for TOMRA is that it's not just hardware and machines, but being the leading actor in this space, the leading company and provider of this technology and being the company that invented the reverse vending machine in the first place back in the day.
I's also about sharing knowledge, and what we're seeing as well throughout Europe now, especially since the national sword in china and the single-use plastic directive that is coming up starting next year. With that of implementation and those measures coming into place, it's really about educating on because you have governments coming to us and asking for advice or asking for knowledge, asking to see different solutions. They can be coming at that from a place of, "We want to reduce litter. We want to take better care of our resources. We want to regenerate the nature that we have in our communities." That legislation is ultimately coming from a place of wanting to drive change on a much wider scale than in sort of just technology and machines.
Then, what we're able to do having worked in different geographies, different business models and having both a very industrial and very in the supermarket kind of technology, it's to have that voice of, "If you want a system like this to be successful, if you want your waste management to be successful, if you want to encourage consumers in your country to build these more positive habits and recycling these materials in a way that gives them the highest possible quality and value, then, from our experience, this is what that kind of system looks like." I think informing that knowledge sharing has definitely been equally important for TOMRA.
[00:32:41] Liz: Definitely. What do you think the wider waste and recycling industry's role is in all of this?
[00:32:50] Kristine: That's a very big question [laughs]. I think in terms of waste management we have to understand also that circular economy isn't just about waste management, it's about design, it's about understanding how from cradle to cradle all the products that we make, how they can have not just minimal negative impact, but how they can also potentially have a positive impact on our environment, and the natural environment, and our habitat, basically.
I think looking at circular economy as more than waste management is crucial, but I also think although legislation such as the national sword when china stopped importing dirty waste and left us, especially in Europe, with that to handle on our own, it became a bit more local because then it became really important to handle as much of that material locally as possible [unintelligible 00:33:51] locally as much as possible. I think that is a shift that it's brought awareness about what are we consuming, what do our waste streams look like. You can't just export it and ship it away anymore, you have to actually face and confront your own material streams within your country in a different way.
I think that has been very educational. It's probably been a little bit stressful as well, but I think that it just shows that immediate change can actually happen, and with the single-use plastics directive that's coming up in the EU as well, really getting to that legislative bit of how do we measure recycling? What do we define as recycling? What is okay? Is waste energy? Is that defined as recycling or do we need to measure it differently to actually get to achieve these targets that have been set in terms of materials recycling, in terms of reducing litter, and in terms of recycled content and products?
It's hard to pinpoint one thing that waste management recycling industry needs to do, but I think what has been a factor of success for us is to really start thinking industry networks, thinking a lot bigger. Also looking at do we go high technology? Do go low technology? What are the markets that we not only need from a business perspective? Not only what are the markets that we want to get into and need to get into, but what is the problem that we're trying to help address. Then, as the world leader within this field, what kind of role do we need to take? Because if we're saying we're the world leader, we need to actually act on that and we need to lead by example.
I think that it's not just designing ever more fancy high-tech machines, but it's really looking at what kind of system do we need to set up and how do we need to think differently about our own business to have a real global positive impact. At the same time, as what we've seen since the national sword in china with the ramifications that it had in Europe as well, it really does matter what you do on a local level and it really does matter.
This is also for my friends hearing, but also from people within this field. I'm working in the recycling industry and I can be confused and frustrated sometimes, but also just understanding how as a consumer, as we all are when we're in our own homes or in the shops, how can we do the right thing? What choices can we make? That information gap from waste management and recycling industry to the consumers has to be closed because we need to be able to sort correctly, handle our voice correctly and handle everything we touch in the day and that we put into our houses that we buy. We need to know where to put it after we finish using it to make sure that it has a second, third, and multiple lives after.
I think, on a very specific level, that's one thing that I've encountered many times where it's like, "What do I do with this plastic thing? What do I do with this? This is a mix of materials, what do I do with that one?" Since there's no real unified standard for all of that, building that and doing that educational work, I think that is really important too.
[00:37:25] Liz: Definitely. To piggyback on that, like you said there's no unified. What advice do you have for people who wants to do their part to overcome the plastics crisis?
[00:37:36] Kristine: I was actually just hanging out with some friends yesterday where we went on this beautiful electric silent catamaran on a cruise on the hostel Fjord where there were some talks about ocean health, ocean plastics, and all that stuff to an audience that weren't necessarily connected to this field to begin with. We were sitting there, and obviously our default level of passion for this subject and understanding of it it's quite a bit higher, but for them as well they were describing themselves as, "Oh Well, I'm a nobody [inaudible 00:38:10] and this is my field", but what we say then is, "Well, we weren't born into this either, we all started somewhere".
Whether it's a matter of looking at your bathroom or your kitchen, what can you replace? Where can you use more sustainable alternatives? Where can you reduce unnecessary packaging? Where can you reduce unnecessary single-use? Starting somewhere whether it's a tote bag or some reusable cutlery that you use whether it's for a picnic or for travel for work, to start there and to really build those habits, though, I think that is a very important place to start.
Just in terms of the bigger picture, of being a part of it because there's a whole debate obviously about the impact of producing cotton or metal products that last a lot longer, but having worked for TOMRA as well and realizing the power of habit, yes, we can have those discussions, but what habit are you encouraging? Are you encouraging repair, and reuse, and investing in things that you know you're going to keep for a long time? Or are you encouraging a single-use mindset? I think that is starting on that journey, moving away from that single-use mindset, I think that is where we all started our journeys and where we've come from.
One thing that is very different for everyone depending on where you live around the world, understanding your local waste management infrastructure is really, really important so you know what goes into what bin and what doesn't go in the bin at all. What has to go somewhere else and what can you recycle in the most meaningful way. Because obviously you can have some conversations and look closely at your local recycling and waste management infrastructure, but if you sidestep it completely and you don't do any of the things that it was designed to handle, you're really making it tricky for that system at all to deliver on what it was designed to do.
I think making sure that you find resources, whether it's online, your local council, whatever, to understand how can you do your part and educate yourself on basically what goes into what bin, I think that is something that people really underestimate. In Norway as well, for years now, it's been a part of the conversation, "Well, I'm just one person and it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what I do in my everyday life", but if you think that way every single day for the rest of your life and you're going to live for another 70 years, the compound impact of that is very real.
[00:41:21] Liz: Definitely and it all starts with one person. It all adds up, I'm with you. Kristine, how can listeners follow along with your journey, and what lies ahead, and all the great stuff you're doing?
[00:41:35] Kristine: Other than hearing me here?
[00:41:38] Liz: Yes, if you want to share a website, or a Twitter handle, or Instagram, whatever you want to share because I'm sure they would love to follow along and listen to more of what you have to say.
[00:41:51] Kristine: Absolutely, yes. I feel I've given a bit of a download already with talking to you today, but TOMRA.com is where we have our automotive resources where you can dive more into what we do. eXXpedition which is an E double X because it's all women, double XX chromosomes. EXXpedition.com is where you can find a lot more about the all-female scientific voyages around the world.
Obviously you can find TOMRA Collection as well on all social media channels. You can find me at Kristine Marie as well, you'll find me through the TOMRA channels on social media. I tend to post a lot of ocean stuff as well. Especially I feel really inspired now to talk also about the polynesian culture and the heritage. What we can learn from them in terms of stewardship and how they've lived on these tiny, tiny specks of land and managed to thrive for centuries. That's definitely something you come across on my social media.
[00:43:04] Liz: Great. Well, I know I will be following. I can't wait to see more. Thank you so much for your time today, you're so inspiring. I didn't realize the double X for expedition, so thank you for sharing that as well. You are all inspiring and thank you for all you're doing.
[00:43:22] Kristine: Well, thank you so much, it was really lovely to talk to you today. Thank you for giving me a platform to share my passion. I'm obviously always happy to talk about this, so it's always nice when people want to listen.
[00:43:36] Liz: Well, we definitely do. Thank you for sharing. Also, like I said, if you end up coming to the states and you're near New York or Connecticut I'd love to connect with you in person sometime.
[00:43:49] Kristine: Absolutely, I can find you on Linkedin or something so we can stay in touch a little bit more socially as well. I would love to, I'll definitely let you know.
[00:43:58] Liz: That sounds great. Thank you. Stay well, we will talk soon.
[00:44:04] Kristine: Thank you so much, Liz, lovely to talk. Take care.