[00:00:00] Liz Bothwell: Hi everyone, welcome to Waste360's NothingWasted! Podcast. On every episode, we invite the most interesting people in waste recycling and organics to sit down with us and chat candidly about their thoughts, their work, this unique industry and so much more. Thanks for listening and enjoy this episode.

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[00:00:27] Liz: Hi everyone. This is Liz Bothwell with Waste360 with Bryan Staley, President, and CEO of EREF. Hi, Bryan.

[00:00:35] Bryan Staley: Hey, Liz. Thanks for having me again.

[00:00:37] Liz: You tell me, but it really feels like things are opening up a bit, at least in the US. That really bodes well for an in-person event like WasteExpo. How's it feeling to you and what are you looking forward to at WasteExpo?

[00:00:51] Bryan: I'm hearing the same thing, Liz. It seems that a lot of folks are feeling more comfortable about the direction of the pandemic and a lot of folks, at least in the circles that we've been running in, have either gotten vaccinations or are planning to do that or are planning to travel. There's lots that seem to be ramping up, really, over the spring here. That's exciting. I know this is still an interesting year -as the cliché goes- related to COVID, but the word we're hearing is that a lot of folks are really excited to start getting out and getting back to business as usual.

[00:01:34] Liz: That's great. We're hearing the same thing and we're really looking forward to seeing everyone. I know all of us have done and, really, the world has done a great job pivoting to digital and other things. But I think our industry, in particular, it's so close-knit to be in person is really important.

[00:01:53] Bryan: Yes, absolutely. Really, this industry is a close-knit industry. It seems that so much happens at in-person events. Yes, you've got the traditional networking. I've worked in other industries and this industry, to me by far, is fueled more by the in-person events than many others that I've at least been in. I, for one, I'm looking forward to getting back to these in-person events to see folks. A lot of times, at least in our experience, it's the non-formal conversations where so much actually happens and gets done, build those relationships.

It's part of a formal meeting, but even running into someone in the hallway or on a show floor really can be far more beneficial sometimes than a scheduled meeting where you go and see them or a phone call or course, something like that.

[00:02:50] Liz: I agree. Let's talk about the EREF auction because it's always such a great highlight at WasteExpo. Everyone looks forward to it. It fuels your mission at EREF so I'd love to hear what it looks like this year, how it might be different, and what attendees can expect.

[00:03:06] Bryan: Sure. It certainly is a little different, again, this year as of last year. We do plan on having a presence on the show floor so we'll be there. We will be conducting our auction virtually this year, but we will have the elements of the auction in the booth so on the show floor people can come, they can still play bits. We just won't have the live auctioneer that we've had in prior years as till this year. We plan on coming back in 2022 full force.

That said, thus far it's shaping up to be a really fantastic auction. I think that, like I said, we'll be well-positioned in our booth to be there for anyone who wants to bid, we'll have drinks, we'll be able to put a drink in your hand and you can still come and enjoy the auction in the formal habit this year. We are expecting a successful event as well. We've had a great participation from our donors already. A lot of the familiar equipment, that if you participated in the auction for, will be there and we have quite a few trucks as well.

We've gotten most of the major, if not all of the major CEOs in there and a few new ones coming on. It'd be great to see that happen. The support's been phenomenal and we're looking forward to another great event. It's funny, because I know that with this year being a little different, especially with the June timeframe, there are folks who have no doubt going to be skittish about traveling. In that respect, I actually look at WasteExpo as a good opportunity, in fact, because, just from our experience, already, we've been able to set up some meetings that'll be at WasteExpo that would have been hard to do in a normal year.

I think, in some respects, there's a bit of a hidden opportunity in what still is perhaps a little different in how things are going this year. We're looking forward to that. Because I think we're able to capitalize on being there in person that perhaps it would have been more challenging in another year. I think that opportunity is probably similar for others who would be attending.

[00:05:18] Liz: Absolutely. I think that is such a great point. I hadn't even thought of that. Such a great point, Bryan. Thanks for sharing that. Also, can you remind everyone the importance of this auction for EREF, its mission, how it fuels your educational and research initiatives?

[00:05:35] Bryan: Yes, absolutely. I do have to give a shout-out to our Auction Committee. Our Auction Committee consists of a bunch of folks in the industry who, really, volunteered on behalf of EREF to make the auction successful. I believe you guys are going to be talking to Martin Mattson with Volvo coming up in the coming weeks. He's our current Auction Committee chair with Zach Martin coming in as well from Big Truck Rental. They lead our Auction Committee right now.

We've got about 25 to 30 folks on the Auction Committee, all of whom help us line up the nations and get things pulled together. They've done a phenomenal job. I think Martin will have some things to share about that as well when you guys speak with him. They really help us right the ship and make sure that we're going to do well. Yes, to your point, the auction is critical for EREF. It covers just about 60% of our annual revenue, so it's extraordinarily important.

We leveraged those funds in ways that I think really are impactful for the industry as a whole, and for the broader sustainability space, as we think about the future and where it's going. It fuels the research that helps provide innovation. It fuels scholarships that help evolve students' professional skillset so that when they get out in the workforce they're well-positioned to add value straight away. It fuels data that we are pulling together on an ongoing basis and, really, that helps inform decision-making, policy-making, and so forth.

Then, of course, it helps give us perspective as well on what are the needs of the industries. Because through the auction and through those kinds of interactions, we learn a lot from folks when they say, "Yes, we'd like to donate. By the way, here's some things we're dealing with." It helps us understand where those needs are so that we can add more value to the industry as a whole. I couldn't mention the auction without just noting that there's a visibility opportunity for folks who support the foundation.

Not only are you supporting a nonprofit, but it's a great way to extend your reach. Especially at WasteExpo, where everyone's buying for a bit of attention from folks on the show floor. We are able to help extend that reach for folks who donate and support us in that way, too. To me, it's a win-win. You're supporting, I think, a great cause. We have over 90% on the dollar of proceeds go to support our programs directly. You've got a marketing value proposition and you can support the auction for as little as $400.

Compared to the expense of even just getting to a location, that's a really minimal expense in many respects. There are lots of ways that somebody could support the effort significantly or at a reduced cost, depending on where you're at. We would love to have folks come and help support the foundation. We would love to explain what we do with that. I think that's been a very positive interaction for all who have supported the foundation. When they see what we do with that money, it's used to really help advance, innovate, and support the future of where the industry is going.

[00:08:51] Liz: I love that. I love that you share that 90% goes directly toward that because a lot of times you don't know. The fact that it goes immediately to that, and you see the effects of that is amazing for an announcement.

[00:09:04] Bryan: That's right. There are watchdog groups out there. We are listed on those and that would encourage it. You can support any charity, I think folks should go to those. One of them is called Charity Navigator. EREF is rated a four-star charity out of four stars and you have to meet a lot of criteria to reach that. That represents the highest quality of charity that somebody could support. Why? Because you're not spending all that money on administrative costs. You're pushing that into the programs and into the mission, and that's where it should be going in the first place.

[00:09:35] Liz: Absolutely. That's fantastic. Also, I will be bidding again. I like how you mentioned that minimum. I haven't won one of my football trips yet, Bryan, but this might be my year. I'm going for it.

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[00:09:49] Bryan: That's great. I'll keep an eye out for that.

[00:09:52] Liz: [laughs] Okay, thank you. I'll keep you posted, too. You mentioned sustainability, Bryan. That's a great segue, I know that you are supporting our new initiative, which is called Sustainability Talks. Really, the premise behind that is, "Let's have some bold talk and real action around sustainability and our industry's role within it." Because it really seems the last few years have been quite a tipping point for our industry. Why not be part of this and really lead the industry forward around it.

I would love your thoughts around sustainability, where it fits within the industry, because I know you're a truth-teller. You think about the research and the data behind that, and not any greenwashing. I'd love to hear your thoughts around that and EREF's stance on sustainability.

[00:10:42] Bryan: Sure. There was a time that certain conversations around the industry would gravitate towards the broader conversations of sustainability. I think there was a perspective that the upstream folks, your product manufacturers, your retailers, they should just let the waste industry manage the waste and we won't tell them how to make their packaging. I think that conversation really has shifted to a different perspective today, where there's a much stronger connectivity between the overall supply chain and how it works, the life cycle of products, for example.

When you think about product manufacturers, they have to get their resources from either virgin materials or recovered materials. In many respects, they drive in market demand from a recycling facility or from other strategies to divert materials. There's a direct connection there and the product manufacturers. Certainly, when you go to that lifecycle, if you can picture a circle and a graph, the last stage of that cycle before it begins again, is the waste management phase.

Many folks would point to that and go, "That's the waste management industry. That's the space they occupy."  I would say, "Yes, that's true, but that's not the only people who would be influencers in that particular phase." The consumers, they make the first decision about where the waste is going to go. They, in essence, dictate which can it ends up in. That's critically important because that automatically dictates how the waste industry handles that.

Then, of course, as I mentioned already, the product manufacturers are at the tail end of that waste management part of the phase. Their decisions, whether it's to use more recycled content, whether it's to downcycle their materials. That can cause end market challenges for the waste industry too. It is far more connected than I think it was, say, 20 years ago. I think that brings the waste management industry right into the middle of the spotlight for the overall sustainability conversation.

It's critically important and I think the waste industry can play a critical role. Not just in managing the waste, but being a voice for those in that space who are making decisions on what kind of packaging they should create around a particular product. Certainly, there are nonwaste related decisions, non-sustainability-related decisions that need to be made that are also rather important. If it's food, preserving that food so that it's on the shelf for a while. Those kinds of things.

But certainly, there's information that EREF, that the industry, can share with these product manufacturers and they, in turn, can share where the limitations are that ultimately can help drive higher in market demand, minimize contamination, and those kinds of things. To that extent, EREF has taken a pretty significant jump in where we see EREF being in taking a leadership role. To that extent, we just approved a new strategic plan two days ago. We revamped our mission and vision as part of that.

This is the first time I've made any announcement related to our new mission and vision, but our new mission is to advance scientific research and create educational pathways that enable innovation and sustainable waste management practices.

Our overall vision it's to light the way towards a more circular economy. The EREF board has taken a significant step forward in saying, "EREF needs to take a leadership role in making sure that the information that we are pulling together, the research that we're funding is credible, it's objective, and it can be used to make sound decisions related to the overall sustainability of not only waste management." But of course, then that drives broader sustainability across the value chain. That's where I think that we're heading as an organization.

That also, to me, parallels where we're heading as a society. In many respects, we've been talking about this for years, but from what I've seen over the past three or four years, there's really a lot more teeth in what's happening. You see that in the legislative bills that are coming out on APR. You see that with the decisions that waste companies and others are making and in some of their commitments around the overall sustainability equation. You see that in the rise of the ESG, a governance structure in a lot of companies. You see a lot of things happening that really weren't 20 years ago. I think that's going to be a key driver.

In my view, what do you need in order to make those kinds of decisions around an ESG governance structure? You need data, you need sound information, sound science because that's going to be where those decisions can be made. While I love aspiration, I don't like aspiration that's not grounded in science. There's an old broadcaster named Casey Case and he used to say, "Keep your feet in the ground to keep reaching for the stars." I feel like that's exactly what EREF can help people do, keep their feet on the ground to say, "Here's the reality of science as we know it today." Does that mean we shouldn't be aspiration about where we want to go? No, absolutely not. We should be, but we do have to understand that there are certain limitations until we can advance the technology and advance the science. That's really why EREF exists. 

[00:16:08] Liz: Absolutely. It's great that you're talking about grounding everything in science. I think that's the reality check that we all need. For the industry itself, I think the industry has always been there as a resource for a lot of these upstream manufacturers and designers to say, "Hey, we're here. We're willing to come to the table. You need to come to us as well." I think to be able to open up those conversations is going to be huge for everyone involved.

It can only help going forward, like you were saying, around the legislation that's coming out and just what consumers want. Gen Z, they're buying brands based on other sustainability initiatives, so the focus is only going to grow greater. I love that you're seeing the connection and that we can all support this going forward and do some really great things.

[00:17:04] Bryan: Yes. I totally agree. I think it's going to be more confusing for people. Because as more focus is placed on this then, of course, you've got more people pushing information out. It becomes important for folks to really start to understand which organizations provide the more credible information, really do your homework. That includes EREF. If you get something from EREF, I take pride in the fact that we do our homework, that we are well-grounded. We provide the references. If we do something internally, we provide the methodology.

Conceivably, with what we do, anybody could replicate what we've done, if you want to spend the time to do it. I think that's the beauty of good science. If you want to understand how it's done, the methodology is there. One of my biggest criticisms of anybody putting out scientific information, you might want to put quotes around that depending, but is if they publish something and there's no methodology. Or they say, "We have a methodology" but they're not willing to publish that.

That, to me, is a big, huge red flag because in today's day and age it's so easy to propagate information that anybody could generate. You can throw anything on YouTube today. You can say anything that could sound really good, but it may not be based on anything real. That's a big challenge, I think, especially in the sustainability space. You mentioned greenwashing earlier, that is a huge problem.

Making sure that that information that's being put out there is data-driven, it's based on sound science, and if it's not, at least that source should be willing to point out the caveat. "Here are the limitations of what we're saying. Take this for what it's worth based on where we're at." That's really important in moving forward because, otherwise, there's a lot of confusion that can be proffered in different circles.

[00:18:52] Liz:  What else is happening around data research and what other projects you guys have in the hopper? I'd love to hear.

[00:18:58] Bryan:  Yes, absolutely. We've got a lot happening. We recently finished two targeted RFPs on research around PFAS and around landfill gas emissions. These are both key areas. Of course, you've got PFAS as an emerging contaminant that there's a lot of focus on. Landfill gas emissions have always been a significant point of discussion for facility owners and landfill owners. Then, of course, the EPA and many focus on emissions from landfills.

Getting more research behind that to understand the connectivity between models that are being used to create policy and direct measurements of emissions is critically important. The technology has gone from almost stone age to space age in terms of how we can measure emissions nowadays. You can measure emissions with satellite technology, with drones. We weren't even talking about that stuff six, seven years ago. Those are critical advances that we've jumped all in on.

On the PFA side of things, we just rolled out a PFAS resources website that contains really all of the scientific research that has occurred around the PFAS topic. You can go and download an Excel file, for example, that contains hundreds of references. If you don't want to do that, we've actually curated a list for you on our website that you can go to. There are just a few dozen publications that are summary publications that you could pull down and get a good sense of what's happening.

It's curated in the sense that we have handpicked those, but we'll be updating that as things go. Other things that we're working on, as you might remember, we published, we call it a Waste Generation Study, but it's basically a parallel effort to understand how much waste is generated across the United States and where it goes. We're updating that. It's slated to get that finished later this year. We have various data projects happening on understanding how many trucks are on the road. How many entities own those trucks, how big the fleet sizes are, what's the average age of these trucks, and so there's a lot happening there.

Of course, I would be remiss if I didn't mention the partnership and collaboration we have with the National Waste and Recycling Association in their Equipment Statistics Program that we partnered with them on last year. This will be our first full year that we've managed that program. We've done a great job with that as well. In addition to that, we also have a sustainability effort that's focused on upstream and really connecting the dots between if you can picture yourself standing in a grocery store, some of the efforts we're doing is characterizing what are the primary goods that consumers purchase, and what's the packaging that contains those goods, and how much of that packaging translates to the waste generation that occurs.

We can start connecting the dots from consumable goods to even different industries like the hospitality sector versus residential, versus offices. Where are these different waste streams coming from? How is that being managed? Then, in particular, how does that then inform the decisions that not only waste management companies might make, but also product manufacturers might make in terms of what packaging they might decide to innovate on in the future.

There's a lot that's happening. I think all of this plugs into a broader framework of understanding, really, the mass flow of materials through society, the equipment that's used to transport that, and the different facilities that are used to manage those waste streams so that, collectively, if we can understand that it really can help drive some broader innovative decision-making. Because right now, or in the past, it's really been disjointed. I think the efforts that we're undertaking really connect the broader points of sustainability to the overall waste management equation.

It's a really exciting time, I think, in terms of what we're doing. Because we see this as a unified mission that's pulling information from the different programs that we're doing to really connect all that together.

[00:23:16] Liz: That really does sound unified. You have a lot happening.

[00:23:21] Bryan: There's a lot going on. We are excited. We're fully staffed up. We've been understaffed for about a year and a half, so it's great to have that situation now where we're not trying to get some folks on board. We're waiting on all cylinders and we really made a nice imprint this quarter so far. We think we go for the rest of the year to really get a lot of content out to folks so that they can start seeing what we're doing.

[00:23:48] Liz: Excellent, because we cannot have enough EREF content. You are the [inaudible 00:23:52] so keep it coming, please. Is there anything else you want to share before I let you go?

[00:23:58] Bryan: No, I hope that we'll see you and everyone else there at Expo. We look forward to it. Thanks for the opportunity.

[00:24:08] Liz: All right. Thank you. Have a great day.

[00:24:10] Bryan: You too. Take care.

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